Indoor Cats

[Burbage]

Absolutely. Australia's marsupial fuana will have to keep up or drop out.

I think that a comparison with drugs is more relevent Tas. Plenty of illegal hashish, but virtually no illegal cigarettes. The first is completely illegal, the second is controlled. If rogues are going to take the risk of jail from avoiding controls then their product is going to be very expensive as a result. Why would the people who want one of these cats not buy them cheaply from the legal process?

It only takes a few fertile escapees to present Australia with a major problem with another large feral cat population. If you ban the import of these cats you will guarantee that happening sooner rather than later.

Hardly comparable to guns. Some illegal guns get in, of course, but they don't start multiplying in the bush. And I don't really think that anyone is going to go berserk on the streets of Hobart and kill fifteen people with an 11kg cat.

[Tas]

and yet cigarettes are considered a number one killer are they not... highly prevalent in society, is hashish the number one killer? you were referring to controlled process, hence the comparison to gun control as a process. and I was making a clear reference to the statistics of things happening, greater numbers, greater chances of 'x' happening. you do tend to take things to extremes rather quickly Burbage, it's not exactly rational is it.

[Burbage]

What extremes? You have a terrible tendency to get upset if someone disagres with you, which is hardly rational in itself.

Let's forget about guns and fags.

Ban the cat. Cat gets smuggled in anyway, with no way to ensure de-sexing etc.
Control the cat. Some chance of de-sexing and registration of the cats.

Either way they'll eventually end up as feral animals in Australia, there is no avoiding it.

[Tas]

I'm perfectly rational, an perfectly un-upset there's nothing in my tone to suggest I am, simply presenting a counter view, I would instead suggest that you really struggle when someone debates a point against you and that you very frequently quickly go to rather ridiculous examples when someone does.

[Burbage]

You were the one who compared cats to guns, not me. I merely suggested that cigarettes might be a better analogy, though in fact neither is very good.

Let us agree to disagree. It is my estimation that banning the import of these cats will lead to a more rapid appearance of them as feral animals in Australia, than would be achieved by controlling them and particularly including de-sexing in that control.

Your opinion appears to be that a ban can avoid the appearance of these animals as ferals in Australia.

[Kooky]

How would they be smuggled in? I would think it's a lot easier to stick a condom full of coke up your bottom than an oversized cat.

[Fat Bob]

You bring it in as a kitten. No need for it to be that big then. Though more seriously, people hide them in bags and the like. Really.

I did think the movement of analogy from guns to ciggarettes/dope was not really helpful. especially when people do smuggle cigarettes in other countries. It's just Australia's remote location and low returns that makes it not worth the hassle (in comparison to smuggling something like dope, guns or cats).

[Morrolan]

How would they be smuggled in? I would think it's a lot easier to stick a condom full of coke up your bottom than an oversized cat.

boats...

[Kooky]

There is a Pets Superstore near Chatswood. Wasn't bad at all.

Here they are, Pet Barn

...and it's not like it's right next door to and shares a car park with Good Guys or anything, is it? Duh.

Thanks, got what we wanted. Shame we don't have space to bulk buy.

[Tas]

You were the one who compared cats to guns, not me. I merely suggested that cigarettes might be a better analogy, though in fact neither is very good.

Let us agree to disagree. It is my estimation that banning the import of these cats will lead to a more rapid appearance of them as feral animals in Australia, than would be achieved by controlling them and particularly including de-sexing in that control.

Your opinion appears to be that a ban can avoid the appearance of these animals as ferals in Australia.

I was having a fairly reasonable discussion about models of control mechanisms, about what works and what doesnt. That's what the discussion points boil down to. You've incorrectly stated my opinion, which was fairly clear I thought if you read my posts, that by imposing a ban, you will minimize the appearance of these animals as ferals in Australia. You can't control the rogue element, but you can make it difficult for them. Basically I counter your hypothesis, and suggest there is a less rapid appearance.

There are several points of debate which are
(1) Do control measures work? What are the models for consideration?
(2) Does banning work as a control mechanism?
(3) How does the rogue element impact on either point (1) or point (2).

[Burbage]

Well, the only models for comparison are other things which can breed and multiply once a critical population has been reached in the wild. Of course, these can only be models, but on the basis of previous examples, rabbits, cats, dingos, various birds, toads, etc, you can be pretty sure that only a small number of animals are required to kick off an uncontrollable feral population. In fact, in an environment where there are no natural competitors or predators, mammals are extremely successful at establishing themselves, and I think you can safely say that a 10-14kg cat is not going to have many competitors or predators, but will have lots of prey. As few as two or three females with one male can start a population in no time at all.

Let us look at the business of selling these cats to owners.
1. There will be a market for these cats in Australia.
2. The people who breed these cats will do everything they can to exploit that market.
3. If the animal is banned from Australia the simplest way to get it unbanned is to establish a feral population as quickly as possible. Once the feral population is established there is no longer a case for a ban.
4. If the animal is allowed entry to Australia but only as de-sexed individuals, then the chances are that the business can exploit its market without having to illegally import animals or attempting to start a feral population. De-sexed individuals may go feral, but they cannot establish a population. In fact there is an argument that releasing inviable individuals is a possible method of controlling feral populations.

But we have to remember, and this is absolutely critical to the argument, banning the import of these cats will not stop them being imported. It only makes it illegal.

[musxzart]

photos! photos kooks! especially with them knocking on the glass door! hehehehe...

[Kooky]

Well I would have taken a photo of Fu who, until 5 minutes ago, was stuck up a tree, but it was very dark and pouring down.

[Kooky]

So back to cat poo we're currently operating with a 50/50 mix of the old gritty stuff and the new Breeders' Choice litter, and so far I am very impressed. Much easier to clean up. Thanks M (I think it was M).

Now I need bright ideas for a funky weather-proof cover or lean-to so I can put the tray outside on the patio. Bender, I need you! ikeahacker only has ideas for indoor covers. (Have toyed with the idea of a wooden dog kennel.)

[Bender]

Have toyed with the idea of a wooden dog kennel.

You'll need a wooden dog to go with it.

Go for plastic - no risk of termites, easy to clean, easy to move, and probably cheaper than wooden.

[Kooky]

Have toyed with the idea of a wooden dog kennel.

You'll need a wooden dog to go with it.

Go for plastic - no risk of termites, easy to clean, easy to move, and probably cheaper than wooden.

I know, but not very nice to look at from my lounge.

[Bender]

not very nice to look at from my lounge.

You could maybe use something like this on it, or get creative with decoupage?

[Burbage]

What about an outdoor table? Makes a good roof for a cat.

[Kooky]

Seen those before Bender - aren't they just, erm, wonderful? I could do with one of those on the wheelie bin anyway, as it don't arf mess up the front of my cute little substation.

Hmm, did have a look at them in Bunnings, Burb, but the most suitable/weatherproof is a nasty white plastic one. Maybe I could decorate one of those.

I'm determined to get the tray out of the house (the covered yard in Geylang was wonderful) and the kits have now realised they have to get their paws wet if they want to go exploring, so it's getting easier. And if I hang on long enough, Roofman next door is going to put up some cat fence (I can see it ready in his garden) so that will save me a few bob.

[FurBaby]

Kooky how bout this : http://www.hidytidy.com/products.htm