Helf - the Terrible Twos have arrived!

[Aliya]

The screams like a velociraptor! The tantrums! The moments of sweetness etc are upon us. Actually MsA is fab most of the time but we have our moments now...

what did those of you who have luckily got through this do to get through them? How did you treat tantrums - at this point we distract her with something else as I think she is too young at 20 months for time out. I know alot of this is about her not quite understanding stuff or being unable to express herself but she does know sign and English and Taglog a bit so she can express herself quite well I think. Alot of it is just defiance.

[Scrummy Mummy]

I read (1) distract if poss (2) ignore. If it got bad I sometimes stick him in his cot till he calms down.

BUT (and I may be tempting fate by saying this) they're getting much less frequent now that he understands a bit more of what's going on so I make a point of explaining stuff in advance (eye contact etc.) and most of the time it's starting to work.

Anyone any tips on bloody minded defiance though?

[slinky]

I think the distraction thing is good & if it's working, I'd say keep with it. Seems to me at 20 months you'd have to physically hold her in a time-out, so, no, probably not worth it just yet.

[slinky]

Just saw SM's post - yes, ignore is good whenever possible. Generally good for when you're at home because there's usually no outside pressure to put a quick stop to the tantrum. Whole point is to get them to understand that pitching a fit doesn't get them what they want.

(But, I hate to tell you, I personally know a couple of newly 5 year olds who sometimes still think it will work )

[Lichtgestalt]

What happened to good old domestic violence? gd&r

[Lili Von Shtupp]

I found they come and go in cycles. Wolfie will be an angel for a spell, and then he'll try out some new tantrum, usually related with some sort of developmental growth spurt I think. His last tantrum that I can remember was in the mall when he wanted me to buy something for him. He hung from my body, grabbing at my clothes, sobbed and sobbed, screetched when I tried to put him in his stroller - it was pure drama! He really drew attention, but luckily (hopefully?) most parent within earshot knew the score. I just calmly and quietly stuck to my guns, and reassured him over and over again that a tantrum was not going to get him what he wants. I have a tone of voice that sounds entirely valium enduced, never excited just calm and focused and supremely "in control". I don't get mean with him and I don't make it personal, I just tell him over and over again what I expect of him. Luckily, the next time we went out he didn't try it again.

I can remember one time when he was a little creep over lunch, this was some months back, and I let him just sit in the high chair and freak out while I sat next to him and happily prepared and ate my lunch. In the end, he complied, but it took about an hour of tantrums. The entire house was tense, but I calmly held my ground, never raised my voice, just reassured him that he can carry on all he likes but it doesn't change a thing. At the same time I made sure to explain to him over and over what it is that I do expect of him. (BTW, this was at home. If it were at a restaurant I would have removed him from the scene without delay!)

So I guess for us it's the old never giving in thing, but I think you have to pair that with nerves of steel. If you let it get you visibly upset and if you fight back, then they can use tantrums as a way to get a rise out of you.

[Lili Von Shtupp]

On the topic of time out. Wolfie doesn't get the whole time out thing, but I did use it once. He was having a complete meltdown and nobody could figure out why. I think even Wolfie didn't know why he was melting down, maybe over stimultation, over tired, over cranky, it was a freak out thing and it was escalating and escalating. I really didn't know what to do. We were at home, so I picked him up and brought him into another room where we could be alone in peace and quiet. Then while he freaked out, I gently talked him in off the ledge, so to speak. I kept it nice, reassuring, and used tones and gestures to soothe him. He eventually cuddled and sobbed until he was calm. Then when he was back to his normal self, we wiped away the tears, gave big hugs and went back out to finish what we were doing.

I don't know why but I just had a hunch that at that particular time, what he needed wasn't a standoff, but, I don't know, I just think that he himself didn't know how to handle him own emotions and was freaking his own self out. Does that make sense? Sometimes I think even he himself gets freaked out by his own emotions and can't handle them.

In any case the time out worked, not as a punishment but as a chance to collect himself, take a deep breath and then carry on.

[Scrummy Mummy]

Interesting thoughts Lili. I do sometimes have problems maintaining that calm voice, but it IS important. The tantrums are because they don't know how to handle frustration and by getting annoyed at them it shows to handle frustration by irritation. The time out to calm themselves makes sense too, and in fact we had a similar incident on holiday but going into the bedroom for a cuddle (on the blow up bed) seemed to do the trick.

[BFG]

Nope.

Agree with Lichty.

Violence is the only answer.

Except when it's less than 366 days away from Chrimble.

As it is today.

15 days, if you're wondering...!

[Kooky]

Obviously I have no words of wisdom but Scummy camping in Perth reminded me of this. I've met a woman here, just moved from the ME and currently in a serviced apartment. Her gorgeous 3 year-old is very unsettled as the ME is all she's ever known, she's missing her bed and most of her toys are on the high seas.

She's developed a few quirky habits but the weirdest - and one I have witnessed a couple of times - is that she won't leave any food in a cafe; she stresses over it and insists her Mum wraps it up and puts it in her handbag. I don't know what all you ever-moving expat parents think but I've said if that's the worst thing that's happening, I wouldn't worry - although the other day it was two slices of garlic bread that had to go in the handbag.

[Scrummy Mummy]

Mini-S was very clingy in Perth, must have wondered where we were and what the hell was going on. It got better as he got more used to it. One particular day Scummy Daddy took him out while I was cleaning and he had a huge screaming fit and was shouting "Mama, mama". We thought he'd calm down, but they ended up coming back as SD was concerned people would think he'd kidnapped him!

My cousin moved there a year ago. They'd sold their house in the UK, moved in with her dad, lived in two rental properties before buying, so the kids (4 and 3) had lived in 5 places in a year and moved across the world. She was saying that it was only later that they realised how it unsettled them when the youngest took to biting.

So I guess this woman's kid is unsettled, and pretty much all she can do is keep cuddling her and telling her that mummy's still there and explaining what's going on. It'll pass, but it must be confusing for the poor litle buggers.

[Lili Von Shtupp]

However, Scummy, I believe that your little adventures in Perth now are building a familiarity with the place so that when you do finally move there, you may find the adjustment a bit easier. At least we can hope!

As for the garlic bread in the handbag. Gawd, that's just nasty!!!

[Scrummy Mummy]

Maybe, but by the time we move there he may have forgotten (I guess can keep showing him pics of house). Having said that, we went to my cousin's and he remembered from October that they have cats, and he was FINE at school this morning having been away for 2 weeks (phew!) so we may be OK.

[slinky]

I just think that he himself didn't know how to handle him own emotions and was freaking his own self out. Does that make sense? Sometimes I think even he himself gets freaked out by his own emotions and can't handle them.

I remember a couple of freak-outs like you've described with little boy slink, Lili, and he was probably about the same age as Wolfie is now. Totally out of control freaking out with not much at all of a reason or trigger that I could figure out. I remember calling Mr. S at work once because I was starting to think something was really wrong! Sounds like you did the right thing - sometimes a break to get it together and not a 'punishment' is what's needed. Come to think of it, don't we all need a chance to step away from the madness and collect ourselves once in awhile??

[Burbage]

Ignore.

If you even acknowledge (that includes trying to distract) the behaviour you'll be getting it for the next ten years. As my brother has discovered.

You should respond only to behaviour that merits response; the child will then quickly realise that succes lies that way.

[Kooky]

As for the garlic bread in the handbag. Gawd, that's just nasty!!!

Well this week at least we made sure all the french fries had gone.

[Tas]

on the food packing away thing for the little kid from ME. I remember on my first overseas trips to China with this particular company, in really really out of way places, I had no control of when my meals were, they're nothing like my bland sandwich for lunch, unreliable with travel and accommodation, and it was start of proper winter and really really ice cold. I started over eating at meals where I trusted or liked the food, and pocketed bits of breakfast as an incase snack in case if I couldn't deal with the food I was confronted with through out the day (still do this a bit). I stacked on about 5kg, and had lots of crumbs in my bag. it didn't take rocket science to work out why I did this as being unsettled and out of control of my environment - it is blindingly obvious to me why the wee little one is doing this with the food having experienced it myself as a grown up supposedly in more control.

[Kooky]

Yes that's my theory too. Funny how food is such an emotional thing, even at that age.

[Lili Von Shtupp]

Burbage, while I don't completely disagree with you, I feel that sometimes problems stem because children do not know what is acceptable behavior and what is not, and it's the parents job to teach these things. When you ignore the child, you are leaving a 2 year old to 'guess' why you are reacting the way you are and hoping that he 'figures it out' the next time. The lack of clarity, IMHO, can serve to confuse the child even more.

In acknowledging his temper I can then explain to him what I do expect of him, to leave no mystery. I think clarity is very important.

[Pinklepurr]

I'm with you there Lili, and nerves of steel are so important. You can't always just ignore, there has to be understanding of what is OK and what is not. Sometimes it the parent who needs to walk away and calm down.

[Lili Von Shtupp]

Sometimes it the parent who needs to walk away and calm down.

Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. At some point it dawned on me that it is less to do with controlling the child as it is with controlling my own self, or at least my reaction to him. When he's railing, I could really just lash back. Sometimes I need a time out too.

[Fresh Mint]

Send them back to the factory like a mouldy Mars bar.

[Lili Von Shtupp]

Send them back to the factory like a mouldy Mars bar.

Childhood memories, Fresh Mint?

[Burbage]

Burbage, while I don't completely disagree with you, I feel that sometimes problems stem because children do not know what is acceptable behavior and what is not, and it's the parents job to teach these things. When you ignore the child, you are leaving a 2 year old to 'guess' why you are reacting the way you are and hoping that he 'figures it out' the next time. The lack of clarity, IMHO, can serve to confuse the child even more.

In acknowledging his temper I can then explain to him what I do expect of him, to leave no mystery. I think clarity is very important.

The mistake you are making is that you assume that the child can't think. They have a better brain than you have (all their brain cells are still alive) it just doesn't know very much yet. The screaming is about attention. If you acknowledge (in any way at all) the screaming then the child will see this as a successful outcome of the screaming, then the child will learn that method of gaining your attntion for the forseeable future. If you don't acknowledge the screaming the child will try a different method. It might take a couple ofdays, but the child would have to be very thick indeed to take any longer. It'll be a hard couple of days, but it will stop as long as the child sees no value in it. It's hard work for a kid, all that screaming.

In the wild all that screaming would result in the child being eaten by something. Problem solved.

[Lili Von Shtupp]

Raw intelligence is not the same as wisdom or maturity. If you never say a word to the child then you're not asking him to think, you're asking him to read your mind. The screaming is not all about getting attention. Maybe you should go back and re-read this entire thread.

"It'll be a hard couple of days."

What kind of kids are you hanging around? I may be wrong but I don't think anyone here has children who throw two-day long tantrums. It just doesn't work that way. Burbage, do you have children?