Olympic Torch Madness

[TheD]

Tibet was so isolated and autonomous, it developed it's own culture entirely unique from either Indian or Chinese influence.

China must understand and respect this.

India could make claims to Tibet stretching back before China. All BS.

All they want is to be left in peace to continue their way of life. They do not want independence. They just want to be Tibetan not Chinese.

[Tas]

I generally think T2K gives the best response on these discussions.
I'm just telling ya what they told me.
Personally I don't think there is a single conquering nation of any country that has a clean enough history, certainly not more recently than 30yrs or so, that is in any sort of position to judge. And any country that still allows dowry deaths, arranged marriage of children to old men, and an ongoing caste system, is not really in a position either. I also dont' think the colonial British and Australia forebears are really on much of a higher moral ground either!

[TheD]

Relax Tas

That's a straw man argument.

Your house is not in order and so you are in no position to judge my house.

Not sure where India judging China's actions come into the picture though. India's involvement is limited to acknowledging that Tibet is an independent country with a God King, invaded by China. India also supports the one China
policy.

India's Indianness is a matter for another thread. But to point out the absurdity of imposing a one size fits all democratic theory - I don't see anyone objecting to the Japanese caste system..

[T2K]

Tas - Damn, that's one of the nicest things anyone's ever said to me. I'm waiting the for the suckerpunch now...

1. I read on another site that Japan has politely but firmly declined the Chinese security, and said they can handle it. Nice.

2. As is often the case, Orwell's 1984 explains the Tibet thing: If you control the present, you control the past. If you control the past, you control the future. China can spin any story it wants about Tibet submitting, no make that begging, to the emperor in 800AD to come under Chinese rule. So can India. So could Iceland, if it wanted. Anyone can justify any act if they want to badly enough and there are enough people who want to believe.

3. Event he Dalai Lama doesn't want Tibetan independence, or at least that's what he says publicly. China will probably eventually give more autonomy, but that will be after 50 more years of demographic assault, when 90% of Tibet is Han Chinese.

[TheD]

As FM would say: The Chinese will let Tibet be Tibet, "when they've been fucked out of existence"

OTOH India has turned over entire towns to the Tibetans. 1000 years from now, all the Tibetans will be Indian and India will have once again absorbed a fleeing people. I love you India!

[Tas]

I'm pretty relaxed actually. But I do have a view on glass houses and stone throwing.

[TheD]

You are welcome to your view Tas, not that you need me to confirm that.

But may I ask where you get the viewpoint that India is throwing stones at China?

[Tas]

BHS, quite right, I'd not look to you for validation. I was giving examples of countries who probably need to get their house in order before they judge other countries, I can continue with others if you like? India seems to touch a raw nerve with you. It popped into my head reading your posts about potential Indian claims. We can stick to USA, England, Africa and those sort of places if you like.

[TheD]

Not at all Tas. Just curious to understand your point of view.

I wouldn't offer it.

Other countries..blah. Back to Tibet.

China should get the fuck out.

[Joseph27]

Five minute headlines are better than 200 paragraph cut and pastes.

If you are after your standard news service with 2 mins news - 10 minutes fluff - 8 minutes sports and weather - then I guess you are right. Certain articles I post are either written by myself on other sites and posted here for interests (if you are not interested don't read them) - or alternatively I read an article some where which is of great personal interest and post here - on top of emailing to certain friends and colleagues. So

[TheDancerOnYourGrave]

Rows erupt after Sarkozy says will attend Olympics

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner summoned the Chinese ambassador in Paris to explain comments warning Mr Sarkozy (above) not to meet the Dalai Lama. --

TOYAKO (Japan) - PRESIDENT Nicolas Sarkozy will represent France and the European Union at the opening ceremony of the Olympics, his office said on Wednesday, but the announcement failed to avert a new spat with China.

The decision was meant to improve French-Chinese relations after a bad spell, but hours later French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner summoned the Chinese ambassador in Paris to explain comments warning Mr Sarkozy not to meet the Dalai Lama.

Ambassador Kong Quan was quoted in the French press as saying there would be 'serious consequences' if Mr Sarkozy met the Tibetan spiritual leader, who is due to visit Paris in August.

'His position ... seemed difficult to accept from France's point of view,' Mr Kouchner said.

After the meeting, the ambassador told reporters China was firmly against any Sarkozy-Dalai Lama encounter and reiterated the Chinese view that Tibet is an internal affair.

Rights activists have called for world leaders to boycott the Olympics opening ceremony to protest against China's civil rights record, especially in Tibet. China's crackdown on Tibet after deadly riots in March sparked worldwide protests.

Mr Sarkozy had maintained the suspense for months over whether he would attend the Olympics opening ceremony on Aug 8, until he met Chinese President Hu Jintao at a G8 summit in northern Japan on Wednesday and told him he would be there.

His decision has extra impact because France currently holds the rotating EU presidency.

Ties between Beijing and Paris were strained in April when pro-Tibet demonstrators disrupted the passage of the Olympic torch through the French capital, triggering anti-French protests in China and calls for a boycott of French goods.

EU disunity

A statement from Mr Sarkozy's office said other EU leaders agreed with his decision to go to Beijing, but at the European parliament on Wednesday some lawmakers accused the French president of letting down EU efforts to pressure China on Tibet.

'Europe has capitulated ... Europe should keep Mr Sarkozy away from Beijing,' parliament vice-president Edward McMillan-Scott told the assembly in Strasbourg.

The head of the parliament, Mr Hans-Gert Poettering, said he refused to go to the ceremony because of a 'lack of progress' in talks between China and representatives of the Dalai Lama.

In France, critics accused Mr Sarkozy of putting commercial ties before human rights.

'I have a different view of what a head of state should be. He is not a door-to-door salesman,' said Mr Robert Menard, head of the Reporters without Borders watchdog, based in Paris.

Mr Sarkozy had said his presence at the Olympics depended on China's willingness to talk to the Dalai Lama, comments that irritated China.

Two meetings between envoys of the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader and the Chinese government have taken place, and another one is scheduled for October, a French official said.

Mr Sarkozy has agreed with Mr Hu not to make a public statement regarding Tibet before the October meeting, the official said. -- REUTERS

Go lah, go, go. They show you your place right? Welcome to a Chinese planet.

[sluggo]

It seems to me that if you apply the standard that any country that host the games must be oppression free past and present it will be difficult to find a qualifying country.

[TheDancerOnYourGrave]

The last guy that invaded a country got his family killed, his country bombed into oblivion but his oil wells intact and well guarded, dug out from a gopher hole and lynched.

Don't see why China should get away with invading a country...oil or no oil

Don't see why the tradition of boycotting the Olympics to make a political statement should change just to appease the damn commies

The athletes personal glory be damned, or go migrate to a country that will not boycott...

Anyhoo, so Sarkozy has learnt a valuable lesson, hopefully Obama and the OZ chap have too.

[Burbage]

The last guy that invaded a country was GW Bush.

[Fat Bob]

Didn't Isreal invade the Lebonan more recently?

[Morrolan]

Didn't Isreal invade the Lebonan more recently?

no, that was merely a police action...

[TheDancerOnYourGrave]

Was trying to be clever

Meant Sadum

[TheDancerOnYourGrave]

Shameless prick (edited to remove girly bit)
If I were as young and as powerful as him, I'd go to Beijing, hold a press conference and invite the Dalai Lama to France
--

Mr Sarkozy made his comments on the eve of his departure for Beijing for Friday's gala opening of the Olympic Games, seeking to mend ties with China frayed by an initial threat to boycott the ceremony. -- PHOTO: REUTERS

PARIS - PRESIDENT Nicolas Sarkozy praised China's preparations for the Olympic Games on Wednesday as his office made clear he will not see the Dalai Lama when the Tibetan leader in exile visits France.
'
To prepare for the Olympic Games, China has given its best', Mr Sarkozy told China's Xinhua news agency. 'If organising the Games was a sport, I am sure you would agree with me that China deserves a gold medal'.

Mr Sarkozy made his comments on the eve of his departure for Beijing for Friday's gala opening of the Olympic Games, seeking to mend ties with China frayed by an initial threat to boycott the ceremony.

In his interview with Xinhua, China's official news agency, of which the Elysee Palace issued a two-page transcript, Mr Sarkozy hailed relations between China and France.

'To this China which improves every day, I address a warm message of friendship; a historic, unfailing and immovable friendship, which links the French people to the Chinese people', he said.

China was upset when the chaotic Olympic torch relay through Paris in April was disrupted by human rights protesters angry at Beijing's crackdown on violent unrest in Tibet.

The Paris demonstrations sparked anti-French protests in China.

Separately, Mr Sarkozy's office announced on Wednesday that he would not be meeting with the Dalai Lama when the Tibetan spiritual leader visits France next week.

'The president of the republic understands the reasons that led the Dalai Lama, considering the present circumstances, not to request a meeting during his stay in France in August', the Elysee said in a statement.

The Dalai Lama's office earlier quashed speculation he would hold talks with the French president during the August 11-23 visit, saying: 'No such meeting is planned and we have not asked for such a meeting'.

The Elysee added that Mr Sarkozy's wife, model-turned-singer Carla Bruni-Sarkozy would take part in a ceremony chaired by the Dalai Lama on August 22. Under French law, the first lady has no official state function.

Mr Sarkozy had threatened to stay away from the opening ceremony following a Chinese crackdown on unrest in Tibet in March, finally announcing last month he would attend in view of progress made in talks between China and the Dalai Lama's representatives.

But tensions have continued to simmer over the possibility Mr Sarkozy might meet the Dalai Lama during his French visit, which was scheduled before the incidents in Tibet.

China's ambassador to France, Mr Kong Quan, last month warned of 'serious consequences' for Franco-Chinese relations if Mr Sarkozy met the Dalai Lama.

Mr Sarkozy responded that it was not up to China to decide his schedule.

In his interview with Xinhua, Mr Sarkozy alluded to the recent tensions.

'Some people in our two countries wondered recently about the reality and sense of this friendship', according to the transcript of the interview released by the Elysee Palace in Paris 'My presence in Beijing will confirm it once more: the friendship between France and China is a fundamental axis of France's foreign policy', he said.

'It answers the profound aspirations of our two peoples, it is indispensable to the construction of a fairer, more sure and more harmonious world order'. -- AFP

[BFG]

Gutless, cheese-eating surrender monkey?

(Where's the tongue on cheek smiley when you need it?)

[TheDancerOnYourGrave]

Your standards have slipped temptress

[BFG]

Nope. I am just bored with people banging on about things they have no intention doing anything about.

[Burbage]

I tried to raise an army to invade Burma, and all you lot could do was argue about hats.

[Fat Bob]

Hmmmm....maybe we should report you to someone. Basically you were attempting a coup d'etat, and didn't Simon Mann just get donkeys years in jail becvause of that?

[Burbage]

No. Mann was found guilty for a FAILED plot. If he'd succeeded there wouldn't have been a problem.

[BFG]

It wasn't just the hats, you lot wouldn't let me comandeer Angelina Jolie...