Do Aussie's really hate Indians?

Fat Bob · Post by **Fat Bob** » 1st Feb, '10, 22:01

All these posts of such an inferior nation....what has the world come to? Oh, I'm in Singapore, not really part of the world either!

Back to racism: the examples Joe brought up about Indians snearing at Bangla's, though not racism in it's purist form (as, if you did have races, the Bangladeshi and Indians would hardly be separated!) However, it is a form of superiority complex. And probably just as nasty and undesirable.

I did laugh at Joe's comments about the Malaysian paper talking about Paki labourers. Is that any worse than Wogball? Or even Bangla? (referring to the people of Bangladesh rather than Soi Bangla in Patong).

Do I think Aussies are any more racist than the Brits? Than the Chinese? Than the Singapore Chinese? Not really.

Do I believe the Aussie lifestyle of having a brash comment (and that's coming from me) on almost every subject out there makes others think they are racist? Quite probably

Onto the Aussie superiority complex: whatever I say will get shot down, taken the wrong way and taken personally. There again, half the above will probably get taken that way too.

Scrummy Mummy · Post by **Scrummy Mummy** » 1st Feb, '10, 22:16

I read some discussion on another webpage where people decided Aussies were racist because they called them poms. I mean, what a crock of over-sensitive shit.

It's all about context. We were in Perth last year picking up some freight and accidentally wandered into a restricted bit at the airport. A guy said "What's this, two lost poms and a kidnapped baby?" but it was obviously a joke so not offensive at all.

I also don't know any boorish Aussies (never met Pauline Hanson) although I'm sure I'll meet some bogans when we get there.

azzam · Post by **azzam** » 1st Feb, '10, 22:40

When I don't know what to think, as I don't now ( because I do have a "PC" bent and am shocked at some of the language used, yet on the other hand, accept that it is a quirk of a very racially mixed community which is also extraordinarily welcoming and gracious at times ) I try and reverse the situation to see how it would look. The following figures are taken form the article. I presume they are well-researched

So if this were in India:
130 Australians attacked countrywide, the Australian high commission says. Of these, 30 were students.
1,447 incidents of crime against Australians in 2007-08 have been reported in Kerala alone. The state is crime-prone, and has a force of 13,000, including volunteers, to police a population of four million.
33 Australians died in violent attacks between 2004 and 2009, says Federation of Australians Students of India spokesperson Graham Grant. Of these, six died in 2009. Kylie Smith was stabbed to death in 2010.

Would Australia be warning their students to stay away and asking for answers?

slinky · Post by **slinky** » 2nd Feb, '10, 07:07

Interesting approach, Azzam. Certainly puts a different perspective on things. I simply don't think I know enough about any of it to make any kind of valid judgement though.

Tas · Post by **Tas** » 2nd Feb, '10, 07:31

when I have a moment or bothered to waste my time, I'll start applying a bit of critical effort into statistics, but I'd probably start with the number of Australians and other business people targetted and dead in Mumbai bombining recently (maybe we should start with Indonesia as another example), then listing out the number of groups making farily outrageous threats against travelling sports team including the cricket and commonwealth game. Theres a couple and rapes and murders of middle aged lady travellers thinking they were going to a Poona buddist retreat I recall from 2008, and if available online there's probably some interesting statistics on incidents involving travellers to the region that will add up. But I don't see there being rabid headlines in major magazines adding this up in a tit-for-tat approach. If you align crime statistics across both countries no doubt it would be revealing. The main bias would likely be in Australia you can overlay a range of migrant distribution across the Chinese, Lebanese, Vietnamese, Italian, Greek, British, Thai, Sudanese, Croatian, Japanese, Indian and so on and use a few sex lies and statistics to manipulate it to say that Australia is still more racist?

baloo · Post by **baloo** » 2nd Feb, '10, 08:22

I think we're seeing a lot more more victims Indian of violence is because there is a lot more Indians in Australia now thanks to the huge Education drive we've been having. And as most students will do any sort of work, especially the midshift at 24hour convenience stores in the dodgy areas, they are bound to find themselves in trouble.

But that's the same for every race. I would be surprised if the Indians are being victimised more as a % of the population or any other demographic.

But I must admit there have been two gruesome assults recently against Indians. One was found burned to death in a ditch on the side of a road, another survived I think but was also set ablaze in a street. Thankfully they found the culprits of the first and though the leads on the second are inconclusive. I wonder if the Indian papers are reporting who the actually attackers were.

Burbage · Post by **Burbage** » 2nd Feb, '10, 11:22

Why would you report facts when hysteria driven demagoguery sells more papers. The press everywhere is out of control.

azzam · Post by **azzam** » 2nd Feb, '10, 12:16

I think I would asking is Australia more violent rather than racist. They seem to kill all races equally.
Tas, this probem is random attacks, not terrorist attacks. They are in a class of their own

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this conversation. I'll just end up in trouble

Tas · Post by **Tas** » 2nd Feb, '10, 12:40

if they are random, why are they being classed as racist and categorised, that isn't really logical is it one or the other. and can you really actually differentiate between violent acts of crime? i can't, i class it as all criminal m'self. and if you want to talk about violent countries, you can even begin to draw out Australia as a prime example, that's just having a bash for the sake of a bash. there are issues to be put on the table which must be addressed as any mature society that wants to stay stable, there's no perfect, but it's bordering on ludicrous if you want to start presenting Australia as 'the' violent country.

slinky · Post by **slinky** » 2nd Feb, '10, 13:16

I decided to have a look at the article & it seems the article itself presents at least one large part of the 'problem' and it's not racism so much as it is racial profiling. There is a section in the article that talks about how many Indian (males, I think) living in Australia a) live in rough neighborhoods and b) tend to walk around with, often times, large-ish amounts of cash on them because they don't have bank accounts and don't trust their roommates. Well, it sounds to me like the thugs in the rough neighborhoods have cottoned on to this and are 'racially profiling' and being kind of opportunistic (for lack of a better term). This same type of thing happened in areas near where we lived in North Carolina except it was Mexican labor workers and Friday paydays. Many of them didn't have bank accounts and/or were paid in cash and thugs figured out when payday was and took advantage of a situation - and in the case of these thugs they were somewhat well protected because a lot of the Mexican labor workers were illegally in the US & therefore were very reluctant to report their being mugged to the police. Not a nice state of affairs.

Every country has its thugs and low life-types who take advantage - often violently - of those they think they can. It's not a pretty side of any society but I can't see that it's unique to Australia.

Tas · Post by **Tas** » 2nd Feb, '10, 13:27

saw a wonderful interview (repeat) last night with Isabel Allende. She said an on the money thing. I am no better and no worse than any other human being. If one human being is capable of torture, I am capable of torture, if another human being is capable of great things and kindness, I am capable of greatness, these things are in me. I have to be ever watchful of myself and the pathway I chose.

obviously not word for word, but in that vein.

azzam · Post by **azzam** » 2nd Feb, '10, 13:37

I don't believe I did present it as "The" violent country, did I? This has been discussed on the board before in the context of drinking and drugs, from memory.
I guess one thing I don't understand, is that any time dreadful examples of racism and violence come up in any country - a valid defense seems to be "oh, but that sort of thing happens everywhere" as if that somehow excuses it ( not saying these attacks are racist, I'm not there, I wouldn't know )
Nothing excuses this shit, anywhere, any time. I think I would like to see Rudd addressing the underlying problems and getting serious about finding solutions rather than getting defensive about whether it's racist. The perception is what it is, whether justified or not.

It's a long discussion, how I feel about race issues and attitudes in Australia. I think I talked about it in an earlier post about Melbourne. Where is that line that Baloo mentioned? I'd like to live there again, but this is the part that worries me - could I shut up when I hear friends I like and respect calling someone with Aboriginal blood "black fella". In normal speech. These are not racist people, but words have power. They carry old outdated attitudes along with them. Maybe it's time for zero tolerance. Or maybe I'm too PC. Why are some names affectionate and others loaded? And who gets to decide, white Aussies?
My personal opinion is that Australians need to grow up on their name calling and maybe that would help lessen tensions in time. But that's just my personal take on it and one I will need to sort out if I choose to go live there again.

One isolated report that stands out from when I was there, was the 18 year old Sudanese guy who was bashed to death in the street by a yob who went out that night saying he was going to kill a black. But the judge in his case announced it wasn't a racist attack because he'd shared a sandwich with an African a couple of days earlier. Sigh....

Tas · Post by **Tas** » 2nd Feb, '10, 14:19

What are your solutions Azzam? Are we to look to our cousings New Zealand as a good example of peace, good behaviour, low crime and exemplary youth behaviour? Or should we look to your selected choice of home and residence in Singapore which is very straight talking on matters of race - there are quotas on housing very explicitly made to keep a steady ratio, and everyone is labelled in a specific range of race and documented as such, philipinnas and indonesians are the maids but they don't get integrated human rights or hours, and bangladeshi workers build the roads? It's certainly not very violent, but I'd question strongly the power of the words and system. Maybe you need to apply the magnifying glass a little closer on where you've actually have chosen to live before putting on your next place. Do you have a long discussion to have about race issues and attitudes in your original and selected hometowns.

I couldn't agree more about having the discussion in honest way about how to integrate multiple cultures fairly - but an honest discussion on immigration policy can't be had with the PC brigade in charge. On the surface it seems that only Asian continents can get away with keeping majority race and culture policies - it's not allowed in places of democracy such as UK, America, or Australia because it gets sensitive and defensive if put on the table the issues at hand. Personally I'm a fan of a mixed multicultural country I think it's wonderful. But I contine to shake my head when people enjoy a good stab at at Australia and tell it to grow up, but won't tackle the really hard places.

And it would be fantastice if someone told me what to call the aborigine. Half the aborigines dont even call themselves aborigine half the time, its a word derived from english language to describe a native person anywhere in the world, and frankly sounds out of place and contrived. Some of the call themselves Koori, which is dervived from one cultural group in one area and doesn't apply all over. I watch the the various public broadcasts like Message Stick regularly and half of the country people refer to themselves "black fella" so someone tell me, everyone else seems to know what's wrong, will one of you tell me what's right.

Burbage · Post by **Burbage** » 2nd Feb, '10, 16:04

Indigenous Australians or aboriginal Australians are the correct terms. As you have pointed out, the terms aboriginal and indigenous by themselves are non-specific. Maybe we need a TLA? How about IAP--indigenous Australian person?

On the other hand, if they are just called Australians the same as everyone else, we can get away from the divisive notion that they are somehow different, or special...

azzam · Post by **azzam** » 2nd Feb, '10, 16:31

Tas wrote:What are your solutions Azzam? Are we to look to our cousings New Zealand as a good example of peace, good behaviour, low crime and exemplary youth behaviour? Or should we look to your selected choice of home and residence in Singapore which is very straight talking on matters of race - there are quotas on housing very explicitly made to keep a steady ratio, and everyone is labelled in a specific range of race and documented as such, philipinnas and indonesians are the maids but they don't get integrated human rights or hours, and bangladeshi workers build the roads? It's certainly not very violent, but I'd question strongly the power of the words and system. Maybe you need to apply the magnifying glass a little closer on where you've actually have chosen to live before putting on your next place. Do you have a long discussion to have about race issues and attitudes in your original and selected hometowns..

Of course I do Tas! This is me, remember? Why must you take everything so personally?

I had just been thinking that the cocoon that is the Singapore press has softened me up. I get so sickened now when I go home to NZ or to Australia and read the reports of nasty violent crimes. But the discussion is about some events in Australia isn't it?
And yes, PC me has a big problem with the childish application of stupid names to whole groups of people without thought of its effects. That much I will own up to. It's time Australia grew out of it.

baloo · Post by **baloo** » 2nd Feb, '10, 16:59

What I find amusing is remembering when I first went to Europe. The English were quiet mean and derogatory about the French, Germans and Irish; the Irish about the English; the Italians about the Germans, Austrians and Albanians; French about the English and Germans; Spanish about the French; Portuguese about the Spanish; Danes about the Swedes and Germans; Finnish about the Russians, etc etc and it was often worse than I've heard in Oz about the indigenous population or any other 'race'.

I'm sure the Canadians, Yanks, Mexicans, then the Sth Americans, etc would be similar. Christ, some of the worst crap I've heard has come from Kiwis about Australians.

For anyone to think Australia is in any way, shape or form worse is just kidding themselves. We get more press about Oz in Singapore because we're nearby and New Zealand doesn't count for much. Also because we take the crap and just apologise instead or defending ourselves.

Finally I struggle to protestations of a country that is so fixated on a caste system where untouchables, decreed purely by birth, are a part of society to be avoided at all costs, seriously at all.

azzam · Post by **azzam** » 2nd Feb, '10, 18:49

As I said earlier. Because others do it, doesn't make it right. Baloo, c'mon. You know that Australians use colourful language in every context. It's part of the humour and the charm. It's something they're proud of and most of the time quite rightly so.

Burbage · Post by **Burbage** » 2nd Feb, '10, 18:50

I think that saying that just because everyone else does it make it OK is a bit crap. The fact is that racism is a product of stupidity and there are stupid people everywhere.

But this whole thing is blurred by the fact that culture is also involved. Clearly Indians are not a race, they are a nationality with a fairly homogeneous culture and religion. Racially indigenous Indians are Indo-European. Equally the Irsh and the English are the same race, they differ in culture and tradition.

Culture, being a product of human invention, is never perfect and there is much to criticise, as there is much to applaud in almost every culture.

The problem in Australia is that indigenous Australians ARE a different race to immigrant Australians. I would be interested to hear what non-aboriginal Australian black people (ie modern African origin people) think of living in Australia. I haven't met any yet.

Bender · Post by **Bender** » 2nd Feb, '10, 18:57

Burbage wrote:The fact is that racism is a product of stupidity and there are stupid people everywhere.

It's not likely that stupidity will be cured anytime soon. Until then, there would appear to be little point in continuing this thread.

Next subject please!

azzam · Post by **azzam** » 2nd Feb, '10, 19:05

I have. They get shouted at in the street by yobs in cars and told to go home. Just like Asians. They get punched in the face for not lighting someone's cigarette fast enough. And that's in the nice areas.
But they love it anyway and are grateful for the opportunity to live there. Because these things don't happen every day and could just as easily happen in London or Lagos or anywhere else. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

And I have to say....

NZ has heaps of problems, but of a different sort. They have problems with gang violence and drugs and child abuse and rampant burglaries and petty crime. But racial abuse is not huge. It's simply not tolerated, no excuses are made for it. I'm not talking gentle ribbing of your friends, I'm talking outright abuse and violence. NZ really struggled with its racial issues due to the Pakeha/Maori mix for a century and there is a genuine will to get over it. I'm not saying they've managed it yet, before anyone jumps in with examples. But the overall culture that is communicated throughout is that it is deeply deeply uncool to be a racist prick. So, even if you are, you hide it.

I get the sense that Australia has a bit of a boys will be boys attitude to it that needs looking at.
Then again, NZ hasn't got the complicated cultural mix that Australia has - that's a strength and a bane and it's one of the reasons I would love to live there. NZ is boring by comparison.

azzam · Post by **azzam** » 2nd Feb, '10, 19:08

Bender wrote:
Burbage wrote:The fact is that racism is a product of stupidity and there are stupid people everywhere.
It's not likely that stupidity will be cured anytime soon. Until then, there would appear to be little point in continuing this thread.

Next subject please!

Fat Bob · Post by **Fat Bob** » 2nd Feb, '10, 19:28

Burbage wrote: I would be interested to hear what non-aboriginal Australian black people (ie modern African origin people) think of living in Australia. I haven't met any yet.

No wonder you've not met them yet, Australia is so racist they won't go there!

baloo · Post by **baloo** » 2nd Feb, '10, 20:18

azzam wrote:I have. They get shouted at in the street by yobs in cars and told to go home. Just like Asians. They get punched in the face for not lighting someone's cigarette fast enough. And that's in the nice areas.

But they love it anyway and are grateful for the opportunity to live there. Because these things don't happen every day and could just as easily happen in London or Lagos or anywhere else. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

And I have to say.... NZ has heaps of problems, but of a different sort. They have problems with gang violence and drugs and child abuse and rampant burglaries and petty crime. But racial abuse is not huge. It's simply not tolerated, no excuses are made for it. I'm not talking gentle ribbing of your friends, I'm talking outright abuse and violence. NZ really struggled with its racial issues due to the Pakeha/Maori mix for a century and there is a genuine will to get over it. I'm not saying they've managed it yet, before anyone jumps in with examples. But the overall culture that is communicated throughout is that it is deeply deeply uncool to be a racist prick. So, even if you are, you hide it. I get the sense that Australia has a bit of a boys will be boys attitude to it that needs looking at.
Then again, NZ hasn't got the complicated cultural mix that Australia has - that's a strength and a bane and it's one of the reasons I would love to live there. NZ is boring by comparison.

Talk about having an agenda.

So for the same type of behaviour in certain sections of the populations, Australians are blokey about it all and it's tolerated, yet in New Zealand it's really really uncool.

Could you be any more biased in your judgement ? Actually, when it comes to Australia, I reckon you could.

Burbage · Post by **Burbage** » 2nd Feb, '10, 20:33

I don't think Australians are racist. I think they're xenophobic.

In fact, what's far more worrying is their complete inability to cope with nouns that are plural in the singular form or the names of teams.

Constantly heard during cricket commentary from the ABC: Australia is x for x and they're going well.

Bender · Post by **Bender** » 2nd Feb, '10, 20:43

...funny how some people talk about Aussies having a superiority complex.

If stupid = racist, what does xenophobic equal?

btw, I don't believe that xenophobia is an exclusively Australian trait.

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