48 Shootings - Labor Day Weekend in NYC

[T2K]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/06/48 ... m-tragedy/

The bad news: Ridiculous display of the culture of violence and lawlessness that exists in some "communities" in the US.
The good news: 48 shot but only 3 dead. These thugs can't shoot worth a damn.

[cromasaig]

These thugs can't shoot worth a damn.

Prob'ly shouldn't be allowed guns, then.

[T2K]

Agreed. We should probably not allow murder either, just to make sure. That would fix this right away.

[Tas]

These conversations always lead to discussions about laws. And the summary always ends up being that the law is already there. Although I have serious doubts if laws allowing carriage and purchase are very good. So seems to come down to enforcement. Why aren't they enforced?

[T2K]

Well Tas, NYC has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the US. But, rather than addressing that, perhaps an analogy using illegal narcotics...

Are they illegal in the US? Yes. Are the laws enforced in the US? Yes, heavily, for many decades and we even have a specific branch of federal law enforcement (the DEA, Drug Enforcement Agency) and our jails are filled with those convicted. Can you still buy drugs all over the US? Yes. Same thing with criminals and guns (and guns don't even need to be smuggled across our borders like many narcotics do). Better deal with the demand rather than the supply.

[Tas]

Yeah fair point, interesting to refocus on what drives the demand or the action, rather than the enforcement over a tool. I think the discussion around laws creates a lot of strawman debates that lose focus of the reason for the violence. (whether it be gun or knife what ever the weapon of choice is, the point of difference with guns being the greater killing capacity en masse in my mind, but not the violence or intent)

[Fat Bob]

Looking back at the riots recently in the UK, there was a commentator who said that hey, haven't we just thrown shit loads of money at all the social reasons, lack of schooling, lack of health etc etc? And they are still rioting? Surely that means that throwing money at the situation doesn't work and we should now look at enforcement of such unlawful in a stronger way.

I'd rather pay more prison guards salaries, have less people on the street and less riots than keep on throwing money at a problem that no one knows how to fix.

[T2K]

FB - When I say "deal with the demand " you can sure as hell be assured that I'm not talking about more "programs" and dole and such. No, nothing like that.

[Tas]

I feel a discussion about parenting licenses and sterilisation coming on....

[Fat Bob]

T2K, no worries, I never thought you did. Was just thinking about what people have said before about dealing with the underlying issues of why people want to go shoot people up. It's quite easy, they do it:

1: because they can
2: because it's easy to get the guns to do it
3: it's difficult to find the people who have done it
4: when they do get caught, it's difficult to get a sentence that will deter them from doing it again

Removing the supply will make numbers 1 and 2 more difficult. Enforcing it and having sentences that will deter them from doing it again will make it possible.

[T2K]

"Removing the supply"...reference illegal narcotics discussion above. Note that, in the case of cocaine, heroin, some marijuana and probably others as well (not my area of knowledge), they have to be smuggled in across international borders. And, obviously, they are consumed and more has to be brought in. Decent guns can work for a century. The supply already in the US is massive. Even with a repeal of the 2nd amendment and Gestapo-like draconian enforcement and confiscations...there is no removing the supply.

Now, about those forced sterilizations...

[Fat Bob]

...or GPS/wifi/GSM tracvking of every person for every minute of every day. Then at least you'll know WHO was there if not who pulled the trigger.

[Fat Bob]

....or set up the PreCrime Unit as soon as possible.

[Snaffled]

That pre-crime thing seemed to work if I remember. Bloody Tom Cruise getting in the way of a perfectly functional system.

[Morrolan]

...or GPS/wifi/GSM tracvking of every person for every minute of every day. Then at least you'll know WHO was there if not who pulled the trigger.

can i bring my mandatory micro-chipping and mandatory DNA collection at birth solution up again? or instead of micro-chipping we'll just iris scan everyone at birth.