The Gun Debate

Tas · Post by **Tas** » 17th Dec, '12, 13:39

It's kind of interesting when reflecting on the Martin Bryant had been on the radar for YEARS with several pyschologist reports - yet what was done and what could have been done to prevent him killing 35people in an event that led to major gun law changes in Australia.

The ethicists and the philosophers that assist in public debate need to get out there and ignite the debate between the rights of the individual with the rights of the broader society. I do personally have some thoughts that agree with the points mentioned about the "me"society, there is very little that can be done for protection of a community or even for the overall good of an individual - you just try and get someone committed who is showing signs of mental health breakdown that could lead to a death on their side or others - good luck to you, had a good look at it one day on behalf of someone else and even made a couple phone calls. Feck all can be done in truth, no powers to get any authority to assist. The rights of the individual will override completely, but is it always right?

Morrolan · Post by **Morrolan** » 18th Dec, '12, 07:51

Tas wrote:The rights of the individual will override completely, but is it always right?

of course not. that is the whole point of living in a society: you give up certain individual rights for the advantages of being in a community (infrastructure, water, electricity, safety, etc). else, what is the point of being in a society? those that feel they owe nothing to the society they form part of should fuck off and go back to scraping their own little hole out of the dirt and good luck to you.

Lili Von Shtupp · Post by **Lili Von Shtupp** » 18th Dec, '12, 09:31

This has been an awful couple of days in FaceBookLand. I have seen friendships broken over this. I have seen normally sane people go berserk.

You non-Americans must think that we are just idiots. I can't fathom how people can have an intelligent discussion about ending mass shootings in America without putting gun legislation on the table. The pro-gun people will talk about the lack of affordable mental health care, the culture of violent entertainment in films and video games, gender socialization, you name it, but when the conversation turns to guns? HELLZ NO! The debate ends when the NRA slogans come out.

At least I don't have any FB friends who want to arm teachers and school administrators. Can you believe that's actually being thrown around as a possible solution?

slinky · Post by **slinky** » 18th Dec, '12, 10:35

Behavior on Facebook would already make an interesting study, if you ask me, but you're right, Lili, some people are really losing it right now. It really seems like so much divides us in America now. How do we get back to the desire to put differences aside and find the common ground? Or is there no more common ground for some? No one can listen anymore, it seems. Maybe this is one of the results of this 'me-first' attitude that's been brought up here. It's depressing.

baloo · Post by **baloo** » 18th Dec, '12, 10:38

Lili Von Shtupp wrote:You non-Americans must think that we are just idiots.

Only the ones I don't know personally.

Lili Von Shtupp · Post by **Lili Von Shtupp** » 18th Dec, '12, 11:48

baloo wrote:
Lili Von Shtupp wrote:You non-Americans must think that we are just idiots.
Only the ones I don't know personally.

Oh, and I need to amend my previous statement. Yes, it's true, one of my FB friends just posted that this never would have happened if the teachers and admin were armed.

Kooky · Post by **Kooky** » 18th Dec, '12, 14:49

I choose my American friends wisely but I can't vouch for any of my Facebook friends' friends, so it's one topic I'm not getting into on there.'

edit: punctuation.

slinky · Post by **slinky** » 18th Dec, '12, 15:13

It's only been in the past 3 years or so that the armed Ghurkas have been removed from the American School here (and I'm pretty sure they were present at many of the International schools here, if not all of them). I was never fully clear on the need for that level of security, but apparently the Singapore govt deemed it necessary for a time and have since decided it isn't necessary. There are still guards at the school, but I don't think they are armed - at least I've never been told they were and I haven't seen evidence of it.

I'm not in any way advocating putting armed guards at schools across America for a whole slew of reasons -- not the least of which is you know they'd only be paid minimum wage and they'd be the same ilk as the TSA in the airports. God knows they'd ultimately end up doing more harm than good for sure and the last place nuts eager to carry weapons need to be is around children.

Pinklepurr · Post by **Pinklepurr** » 18th Dec, '12, 16:14

Didn't the armed guards at SAS happen after 9/11 when everyone went security mad? Our old school had guards, but not armed ones for all the time we were there.

I've seen all the talk about arming teachers, or at least a nominated one, at schools, and just find it horrific to think of. I never will get the you have to be armed to stop others shooting argument.

slinky · Post by **slinky** » 18th Dec, '12, 16:52

Pinklepurr wrote:Didn't the armed guards at SAS happen after 9/11 when everyone went security mad?

Probably, but I didn't get here until 2004, so it's just the way it was for me up until about 3 years ago.

Kooky · Post by **Kooky** » 18th Dec, '12, 16:57

9/11 or the first Bali bombing. Things got very weird for a while after the latter.

T2K · Post by **T2K** » 18th Dec, '12, 17:05

We don't need to force anyone to be armed at schools. Just don't prohibit teachers and staff who are licensed and willing from being armed***. Presently they, who have proven time and time again that they are willing to die in futile unarmed attempts to protect their students against armed nutjobs like the principal in Connecticut did, are forbidden from being armed. Schools are obviously a target for nutjobs all over the world. They are not going away and this is not going to stop. Even if someone "only" kills 8 kids with a knife, it's 8 too many.

Why not give teachers and staff a chance to effectively counter these attacks? Our "gun free zone" laws just make schools obvious soft targets (which is why they are so often chosen as targets). Just the possibility of resistance will be enough to deter a lot of these nutjobs, who are cowards and only select places where they know they will absolutely be the only armed person. No one tries this crap at a police station, a gun store / range, or a major sports event (where there are tons of armed cops around).

"I never will get the you have to be armed to stop others shooting argument." Seriously? I cannot understand this statement at all. So, when someone is shooting at you or our kids, what will stop them?

***I hope this give me credit so that Lili can say she's now seen people on FB and an internet form she frequents say this.

baloo · Post by **baloo** » 18th Dec, '12, 17:42

T2K wrote:"I never will get the you have to be armed to stop others shooting argument." Seriously? I cannot understand this statement at all. So, when someone is shooting at you or our kids, what will stop them?

Jesus.

T2K · Post by **T2K** » 18th Dec, '12, 18:09

I suppose, though I would prefer that He just asked His Father to make sure no one murders anyone in the first place.

baloo · Post by **baloo** » 18th Dec, '12, 18:28

God works in mysterious ways.

Pinklepurr · Post by **Pinklepurr** » 18th Dec, '12, 19:29

Nope, I seriously don't get it. With that argument everyone has to walk around armed, just in case someone decides to start shooting at you or someone next to you or whatever. Where does it stop?

Morrolan · Post by **Morrolan** » 19th Dec, '12, 08:49

i'm just waiting for the first principal to shoot all the kids in a school.

obviously, when that happens we have to arm all the children...

T2K · Post by **T2K** » 19th Dec, '12, 09:06

Or the first time a cop murders someone with his issued pistol. Oh, wait, thats happened many times in many countries (including here in SG, I believe). The world is a fucked up place, there are no guarantees.

Pinklepurr - you are referring to "just in case" as opposed to when it's actually happening. I assumed the latter, not the former, in your initial statement. In the latter case, we clearly agree that's when you need someone else with a gun, right? In the "just in case" scenario we have to weigh risks and requirements. In the US context:
-clearly there are nutjobs who sometimes commit mass murders
-clearly they can get armed no matter how many laws we add to the hundreds of gun laws we already have (this is different in other countries)
-clearly schools are their favored and carefully planned targets since they are places where no one is legally allowed to have a weapon (even if licensed to do so) so they will face zero resistance
-thus, logically, we should address this matter and not make schools such appealing targets

Of course the root cause of murder is murderers. The only thing that would have stopped this guy (he was willing to murder his own mother to accomplish his carefully considered plans!) would have been preventative detention, even though he committed no crimes and made no threats. A rather slippery slope, certainly one that we cannot rely on to be 100% effective.

At least, that's how I see it. One thing I've learned in this big world is many people look at the same situation and facts and come to completely opposite conclusions.

Fat Bob · Post by **Fat Bob** » 19th Dec, '12, 10:38

T2K: I'm finally wading into this.

Do you think a loner nutjob would be able to easily get hold of an illegal gun? The guns by this and quite a few other recent nutjobs are all legally held guns which have been purchased either by the nutjob or a family member.

Guns are available illegally - if I believe the TV, then there are the ones used by career criminals, gang members, organised crime syndicates, mostly people who are not entering places that shouldn't need protecting (e.g. schools, churches) and using them.

If you believe that the availability of the guns is not anything to do with the problem, and you also believe that the availability of the ammunition, all legally, then you are seriously deluded.

Yes, there will always be cases where nutjobs get hold of illegal guns, and yes, we should have procedures put into place where nutjobs are better treated, but that still does not take away the fact that nutjobs over 21 have a legal right to go and purchase semi-automatic rifles and handguns and take them home.

Tas · Post by **Tas** » 19th Dec, '12, 10:46

I am genuinely wondering now. How many right in the middle of the action criminal activities have been stopped by a member of public with a gun? There's enough of them about to have by now an impact in places like the US surely. I've never known of any one with the training, speed of action and knowledge of how to act actually prevent something happening - it's always struck me as stuff of the movies. But that is basically what the scenario of 'someone shooting at you and your kids', has that happened to a single person anyone here knows personally? Or some genuine documented info?

T2K · Post by **T2K** » 19th Dec, '12, 12:17

FB - The genie is out the bottle in the US. The proliferation of guns is at such a level, many (more than half?) with no paper trail at all, that yes I am 100% sure any nutjob of reasonable intelligence (and they all seem to be "highly intelligent misfits", or so we're told) and motivation could get one. This last guy was motivated enough to murder his own mother to steal hers for his well-planned attack. You think he wouldn't murder someone else to get theirs? Or steal them from somewhere else? Or buy them illegally (which is as easy as buying cocaine, I've heard, and that seems not to be difficult for millions or non-hardcore criminal Americans)?

What you are proposing would require a repeal of the 2nd Amendment (the right of the people to keep and bear arms) and the repeal of the 4th Amendment (the right to protection from unreasonable searches and seizures) because protracted and nation-wide hardcore Soviet style random kick-down-the-door and search and confiscate operations would be required to make it happen. In other words, it's not going to happen. We need to plan for the world we actually live in, not the one we don't.

Tas - Here's one from earlier this year (I made sure to get the Fox News clip since people love that station so much): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t47Y7XH3YJM

Here's one from last week. This would have probably been a lot worse (another full-on nutjob mass murder) if the guy with the concealed carry license hadn't scared the nutjob and made him run and kill himself. He was "only" able to kill two people (which is two too many). Of course, that's a common situation - the mass murders that are stopped don't make the news like the ones that aren't! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSvOOdk2nlg

Here's a 65 year old woman firing at and chasing out 5 armed robbers in her shop. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CriVUV5lh_M
I doubt she had any particular "training, speed of action and knowledge".

Note that armed robberies often end with dead store personnel or customers. To rely on "if I don't resist them, they won't hurt me" is obviously foolish.

An immediate family member of mine was killed in a robbery / homicide (by a career criminal with a gun which he was not legally allowed to possess). If my relative was armed, the result might have been the same. It couldn't have been any worse, though, and it might have been better.

Lili Von Shtupp · Post by **Lili Von Shtupp** » 20th Dec, '12, 10:38

"If only the first victim, Adam Lanza's mother, had been a gun owner, she could have stopped this before it started."

Ballsy quote from T2K's favorite guy, Michael Moore.

T2K · Post by **T2K** » 20th Dec, '12, 12:22

If only Michael Moore had made a "documentary" about this issue, he could have stopped it before it started.

Lili Von Shtupp · Post by **Lili Von Shtupp** » 20th Dec, '12, 13:18

touche!

baloo · Post by **baloo** » 20th Dec, '12, 16:12

I wouldn't mind see the correlation of gun shooting massacres by youngish men and the popularity of FPS gaming.

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